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Post by garmonbozia on Oct 12, 2016 22:54:32 GMT -5
the cardboard/lifeless and uninteresting characters like Dawn/Jane? Of all the Phantasm women, she alone came off as a non-character. Did anyone even care when she died? And what about the creepy, child-molester-like character who steals the Cuda? He looked and felt like the child rapist in the beginning of The Devil's Advocate. I don't know. Dawn didn't seen like any more of a non-character than Heidi Marnhout's Jennifer from Oblivion to me. And the cuda-stealing dude was nowhere near the creepy pedo-level of John Davis Chandler's "Henry" character from Phantasm 3 honestly
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Post by phantasmal on Oct 13, 2016 1:38:47 GMT -5
Garmonbozia wrote:
Jennifer was very memorable to me. She had more personality by far than Dawn/Jane. I can't even remember two words Dawn/Jane said in the movie. She was lifeless. Henry, to me, came off as just a cruel criminal. He didn't have that slimy creepiness to him. Something about the Cuda stealer just made him creepy and not in a good way. Again, the entire movie seemed to have a nastiness, a vulgarity to it, that the originals didn't.
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Post by pharrout on Oct 13, 2016 2:36:36 GMT -5
To me, Mike's story was pretty much wrapped up in part 4. You say we don't know why the tall man wanted Mike but we do -So he could turn him into the next tall man. Mike resisted the tall man's control and desire to turn him into his next vessel, so the tall man took his gold ball and went home. Mike accepted the inevitability of his death. Part 4 was his ending. Part 5 is Reggie's ending. It can coexist with AND contradict Mike's ending because this is Phantasm and there are multiple universes that are all constantly shifting. Ravager itself is obviously Reggie-centric but in my view, that doesn't make the entire series about Reggie. And let's not forget that Ravager isn't the first film where Reggie is the lead focus. That would be Phantasm 3. Mike is virtually comatose in the small portions of the film he is actually in. Yes, we know the Tall Man wanted to groom Mike, but why Mike? Why didn't he want to groom Jody or Reggie, what made Mike special? This is something we will never know (probably the biggest unanswered question of the series). You said that "The Tall man took his gold ball and went home" - but in Ravager, the Tall Man specifically tells Reggie that he can have his family back, but can't have Mike, this proves that the Tall Man still wanted Mike (post-Oblivion) and really didn't care about Reggie (so no need to make Reggie the central focus), when they could've spent more time in the final film (P5) answering the Mike/Tall Man dynamic. You also realize that Mike was shown in Ravager sewing up the scar on his head, so he obviously survived the removal of the golden ball (sphere). I think the multiple universes constantly shifting, is used often too much as an excuse to cover plot holes and unanswered questions. Yes, there are some things left to our imagination, but you can't keep using the multi-dimension excuse as a cop out when other phans bring up major plot holes and/or give objective/constructive criticism. Just because Mike doesn't appear in the first few acts in P3, he is still the lead focus. Reggie is in pursuit of Mike... the Tall Man kidnapped him, so obviously we had to wait until Reggie caught up with him. Once again, the Tall Man wanted Mike, not Reggie. P5 should of been released as a spin-off (like Rocky's Tales, Reggie's Tales, Tim's Adventures... etc). That would've made more sense. The Phantasm 37 year saga is the coming of age of Mike, P5 trivialized that.
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Post by phantasmal on Oct 13, 2016 2:48:24 GMT -5
Pharrout wrote: Amen! That's exactly what I've been trying to say. It's a cheap cop-out and a sign of laziness or lack of storytelling ability. Especially when the events of Ravager pretty much make it clear that it's all just Reggie's dementia. Even Mike talking to Reggie about alternate realities just seems to be an effort to calm Reggie and talk down to him. Yup. And flushed it and invalidated it and...
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Post by garmonbozia on Oct 13, 2016 6:17:31 GMT -5
I personally don't agree that Ravager was any more vulgar or nasty than the other films. To me, Mike's story was pretty much wrapped up in part 4. You say we don't know why the tall man wanted Mike but we do -So he could turn him into the next tall man. Mike resisted the tall man's control and desire to turn him into his next vessel, so the tall man took his gold ball and went home. Mike accepted the inevitability of his death. Part 4 was his ending. Part 5 is Reggie's ending. It can coexist with AND contradict Mike's ending because this is Phantasm and there are multiple universes that are all constantly shifting. Ravager itself is obviously Reggie-centric but in my view, that doesn't make the entire series about Reggie. And let's not forget that Ravager isn't the first film where Reggie is the lead focus. That would be Phantasm 3. Mike is virtually comatose in the small portions of the film he is actually in. Yes, we know the Tall Man wanted to groom Mike, but why Mike? Why didn't he want to groom Jody or Reggie, what made Mike special? This is something we will never know (probably the biggest unanswered question of the series). You said that "The Tall man took his gold ball and went home" - but in Ravager, the Tall Man specifically tells Reggie that he can have his family back, but can't have Mike, this proves that the Tall Man still wanted Mike (post-Oblivion) and really didn't care about Reggie (so no need to make Reggie the central focus), when they could've spent more time in the final film (P5) answering the Mike/Tall Man dynamic. You also realize that Mike was shown in Ravager sewing up the scar on his head, so he obviously survived the removal of the golden ball (sphere). I think the multiple universes constantly shifting, is used often too much as an excuse to cover plot holes and unanswered questions. Yes, there are some things left to our imagination, but you can't keep using the multi-dimension excuse as a cop out when other phans bring up major plot holes and/or give objective/constructive criticism. Just because Mike doesn't appear in the first few acts in P3, he is still the lead focus. Reggie is in pursuit of Mike... the Tall Man kidnapped him, so obviously we had to wait until Reggie caught up with him. Once again, the Tall Man wanted Mike, not Reggie. P5 should of been released as a spin-off (like Rocky's Tales, Reggie's Tales, Tim's Adventures... etc). That would've made more sense. The Phantasm 37 year saga is the coming of age of Mike, P5 trivialized that. Not knowing the specific reason why the tall man wanted Mike has never bothered me. It was obvious that Mike was more perceptive. After all he was the only one in the original film initially who could see the tall man for what he was, and knew what was going on. I assume this has something to do with it. Phantasm has always been more about the questions than the answers to me. And yes Ravager showed Mike sewing up the scar on his head, so he did survive... IN THIS DIMENSION. But what of the dimension Reggie left behind when he went through the space gate at the end of Oblivion? Mike may be dead in one reality and simultaneously alive in another. I don't find the use of multiple dimensions to be a copout. It's always been a core feature of the series. If we're going to say that it's just an easy way to cover plot holes and unanswered questions, then certainly we'd have to level that criticism against every single film in the series, all the way back to the original. Why didn't Reggie remember the events of the first film? How did he get his quad barrel back in part 3 when he threw it away at the end of part 2? How did Mike switch to a different person then back? To me, having "answers" or explaining every "plot hole" is just not what this series is about. Never has been. It's a journey, not a destination. I respect your opinion but I didn't find that Ravager trivialized the series in any way. Quite the opposite.
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Post by garmonbozia on Oct 13, 2016 6:25:30 GMT -5
Pharrout wrote: Amen! That's exactly what I've been trying to say. It's a cheap cop-out and a sign of laziness or lack of storytelling ability. Especially when the events of Ravager pretty much make it clear that it's all just Reggie's dementia. Even Mike talking to Reggie about alternate realities just seems to be an effort to calm Reggie and talk down to him. Just seems that if the "plot holes" and "unanswered questions" bothered you so much, they would have done so since the first film? Ravager is hardly unique in that sense. Every film in the series shifts its reality at least slightly from the previous films. Even in the first Phantasm, they tell you the whole thing was a dream. Then in part 2, guess what? They are in a different reality where Reggie doesn't remember any of the events from the first film ever happening. Does that mean Phantasm 2 completely negated or trivialized the first film? I don't think so. Ravager in no way made it clear that it's "all just Reggie's dementia." That was certainly one possibility among many, but the film no more committed to this presentation of reality than any of the other phantasm films have been committed to any empirical presentation of reality. I can dig it if you don't like the film, but it didn't suddenly commit to just one singular reality at the very end. It's still very much multiple choice as the series always has been. I would have hated the film if it gave me definitive answers or conclusions. That's a film talking down to me, telling me what to think. I'm very happy that Ravager didn't do that. It kept the unanswerable spirit of Phantasm to the very end.
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Post by pharrout on Oct 13, 2016 7:30:34 GMT -5
Not knowing the specific reason why the tall man wanted Mike has never bothered me. It was obvious that Mike was more perceptive. After all he was the only one in the original film initially who could see the tall man for what he was, and knew what was going on. I assume this has something to do with it. Phantasm has always been more about the questions than the answers to me. And yes Ravager showed Mike sewing up the scar on his head, so he did survive... IN THIS DIMENSION. But what of the dimension Reggie left behind when he went through the space gate at the end of Oblivion? Mike may be dead in one reality and simultaneously alive in another. I don't find the use of multiple dimensions to be a copout. It's always been a core feature of the series. If we're going to say that it's just an easy way to cover plot holes and unanswered questions, then certainly we'd have to level that criticism against every single film in the series, all the way back to the original. Why didn't Reggie remember the events of the first film? How did he get his quad barrel back in part 3 when he threw it away at the end of part 2? How did Mike switch to a different person then back? To me, having "answers" or explaining every "plot hole" is just not what this series is about. Never has been. It's a journey, not a destination. I respect your opinion but I didn't find that Ravager trivialized the series in any way. Quite the opposite. Just seems that if the "plot holes" and "unanswered questions" bothered you so much, they would have done so since the first film? Ravager is hardly unique in that sense. Every film in the series shifts its reality at least slightly from the previous films. Even in the first Phantasm, they tell you the whole thing was a dream. Then in part 2, guess what? They are in a different reality where Reggie doesn't remember any of the events from the first film ever happening. Does that mean Phantasm 2 completely negated or trivialized the first film? I don't think so. Ravager in no way made it clear that it's "all just Reggie's dementia." That was certainly one possibility among many, but the film no more committed to this presentation of reality than any of the other phantasm films have been committed to any empirical presentation of reality. I can dig it if you don't like the film, but it didn't suddenly commit to just one singular reality at the very end. It's still very much multiple choice as the series always has been. I would have hated the film if it gave me definitive answers or conclusions. That's a film talking down to me, telling me what to think. I'm very happy that Ravager didn't do that. It kept the unanswerable spirit of Phantasm to the very end. You know, i've come to the conclusion, that, "I don't care anymore." Lol... I've pretty much covered my reasons for disliking Phantasm (P5), earlier in this thread (pgs 2&3) in depth. Phantasmal has as well (pgs 2&3). You can take it or leave it... I'm done commenting.
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Post by garmonbozia on Oct 13, 2016 8:26:07 GMT -5
Fair enough. We'll agree to disagree Honestly, it's really nice to even be able to talk about phantasm with phans again. There hasn't been any good debate or discussion online in years!
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Post by phantasmal on Oct 15, 2016 5:28:32 GMT -5
Garmonbozia wrote:
Well I would say there's a huge difference between plot holes and the invalidation of four entire films. And remember, after making Phantasm I, Coscarelli had no way of knowing he'd be able to make a sequel, much less 4 additional ones. So Phantasm II had to "make sense of" part one so to speak. So at the beginning of Phantasm II, we find out the Tall Man is real. That's pretty much the narrative and understanding of pretty much everyone I know who's ever seen the films. It remains that was all the way until Ravager.
I don't know - it seemed clear to me and to a lot of others who have criticized the movie. Sure, you can force an interpretation on it, but those other interpretations are not really supported by the movie itself, or developed in any way. Reggie's dementia is pretty much the over-riding theme of the movie, developed pretty deeply.
I think on that point we may need to simply agree to disagree.
I think that after 37 years of questions, the fans were owed at least some questions answered. Instead we simply got more strange questions that opened up more questions and that made no sense (i.e. Tall Man's offer to Reggie). To me it simply reeked of bad writing/directing.
So true! We all love Phantasm, and some like certain parts better or less than others. I think it's a miracle a movie franchise made it through four great movies, especially on such a small budget overall!
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Post by bigphan1990 on Dec 7, 2016 0:21:06 GMT -5
I finished watching RaVager and boy it was good. The ending was happy and sad at the same time for me (tugs at the heartstrings, man). I felt the story was executed very well but I can see why people say it was confusing at times.
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