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Post by jjrakman on Mar 29, 2014 11:33:52 GMT -5
So I'm just trying to straighten out what it is we know about them. I think it goes something like this: Tall Man/Lady in Lavendar Human helpers Gravers Dwarves Silver balls Gold balls Giant ball So I'm not sure what the Lady in Lavender's purpose is, perhaps it's another form the Tall Man can take to seduce victims or something? But why would he need to do that if his primary crop is dead people to begin with? Why would he try to seduce Jody in that form? We know the Tall Man is essentially a kind of walk-in, a spirit that took over the body of Jebediah Morningside. I wonder if there are other "Tall Men" throughout the world, each managing the same kind of operation in their own corner of the world. The human helpers always seemed strange to me because they don't seem to have any outward signs of being anything other than human, and they die all right. But they do behave in a strange way, like they're under hypnosis or something. I have no idea what the purpose of gravers are or what they are, or why they wear a burlap mask with goggles. The dwarves are being used as slaves in whatever task it is they're needed for. Any corrections or additional info from more knowledgeable folks would be appreciated.
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Post by krakenslayer on Mar 29, 2014 12:42:37 GMT -5
It's not entirely clear whether the Tall Man is a "walk-in" spirit in control of Jebediah; an extradimensional intelligence that has taken the form (but not the original body) of Jebediah; or if he is simply Jebediah himself having had an epiphany or having discovered some piece of knowledge in his interdimensional travels that is so world-alteringly, mind-bendingly horrific/alien/traumatic that it brings about a complete change in him and leads him to become TM of his own volition. Your point about other Tall Men is a good one, and I wonder also if there are not powers and authorities above him, managers and masterminds of an operation of which TM is merely a foreman... Of course, the other possibility is it really is all in Mike's head and it doesn't make sense since it's all a dream, boy. EDIT: Judging from Phantasm 2, the Gravers seem to be muscle for exhuming and preparing corpses for transformation. I suspect they are either "hypnotised" humans like the pallbearers, albeit wearing masks to protect them from the disgusting smells and fumes involved in the process, or they are zombified humans like the dwarves, albeit with no requirement to be shrunken down, since their job is Earthside and there is no need to prepare them for conditions on the Red Planet. In the second scenario, the mask has a double purpose of hiding their rotten/mutated state from anyone lucky enough to see them and survive. Men wearing gas masks would be an easier sight to cover-up and explain away than an army of hideously deformed humanoids.
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Post by prymal on Mar 29, 2014 16:20:48 GMT -5
hhhmmm....other tall men..that is a great hypothesis. i was wondering if cloning or time jumping was responsible for the Tall Man showing up, alongside his own corpse no less! and i loved, LOVED the bewildered or slightly confused look that the Tall Man gave at the end of P4 whenever he collected Mike's sphere...when he stops and looks around as if it was the first time he was really there, although he went straight after Mike...very perplexing, & i might add GREAT acting on the Tall Man's alter ego, Angus Scrimm, what attention to detail! VERY curious to all this, cannot wait to see raVager..and although sad that it appears to be the end, i want answers! it is just great to see Don's vision of how all of this will tie up!
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Post by jjrakman on Mar 29, 2014 17:31:08 GMT -5
Your point about other Tall Men is a good one, and I wonder also if there are not powers and authorities above him, managers and masterminds of an operation of which TM is merely a foreman... If that is the case, then it would seem to me that higher up there would ultimately be one boss or manager, for the entire planet Earth. If so, then might there be other managers for other planets with other beings as well? Am I making an incorrect distinction here, between the seemingly regular human looking workers, and the gravers wearing the burlap masks?
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Post by krakenslayer on Mar 29, 2014 18:38:51 GMT -5
Am I making an incorrect distinction here, between the seemingly regular human looking workers, and the gravers wearing the burlap masks? No, it's the default distinction I think we all make, but since we've never seen behind the masks we don't know for sure. What I'm saying is, they might *either* be like those regular human-looking workers or they might be like the dwarves: zombified undead minions. Heck, the human-looking pallbearers could even just be particularly well-preserved zombified workers. There might be a distinction between all these different workers, or none apart from height and uniform.
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Post by jjrakman on Mar 29, 2014 19:18:53 GMT -5
Okay, so that makes sense.
One thing about the silver balls that has me perplexed, is the fact that, we know that brains are put inside of them. So they seemingly have some kind of intelligence or sentience?
Yet, they sometimes attack the pall bearers just as they would any other intruder, which suggests they're operating on pure instinct rather than having any kind of actual intelligence. Do we know what exactly their task is?
Also, do I have the right or accepted labels for all of these things to begin with?
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Post by krakenslayer on Mar 29, 2014 19:31:44 GMT -5
As a guess perhaps the spheres are just an all-purpose "chassis" that can be fitted out with a range of different contents and components? Some are entirely automated mechanical probes, some are fitted with "dumb" dwarf brains, and a few - like the Jody sphere, Mike sphere, Gold sphere, etc. - house, or even serve as a prison for, fully-functioning minds. Just a stab in the dark, here. We already know that different spheres have different capabilities: lasers, different types of cutting device, etc.
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Post by jjrakman on Mar 29, 2014 19:57:19 GMT -5
That makes sense.
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Post by prymal on Mar 30, 2014 9:56:57 GMT -5
i have wondered if whatever Jebediah Morningside stumbled across in his inter dimensional travels already had the mech-spheres and maybe after his fall (or ascension, depending on one's viewpoint) that he improved on the design by incorporating organic brains into the spheres..? the gold spheres obviously being his generals in the army of silver spheres. i am wondering if the gold spheres can shape shift as Jody, although he is a silver sphere...but maybe he was the first for the experimental shifting idea, or just because he was upgraded to lure Mike into the Tall Man's clutches...i am anxious to see the Lady in Lavender's part in all of this... and in what capacity will we see Jody?
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Post by jka12002 on Mar 30, 2014 20:55:08 GMT -5
It's not entirely clear whether the Tall Man is a "walk-in" spirit in control of Jebediah; an extradimensional intelligence that has taken the form (but not the original body) of Jebediah; or if he is simply Jebediah himself having had an epiphany or having discovered some piece of knowledge in his interdimensional travels that is so world-alteringly, mind-bendingly horrific/alien/traumatic that it brings about a complete change in him and leads him to become TM of his own volition. Your point about other Tall Men is a good one, and I wonder also if there are not powers and authorities above him, managers and masterminds of an operation of which TM is merely a foreman... Of course, the other possibility is it really is all in Mike's head and it doesn't make sense since it's all a dream, boy. EDIT: Judging from Phantasm 2, the Gravers seem to be muscle for exhuming and preparing corpses for transformation. I suspect they are either "hypnotised" humans like the pallbearers, albeit wearing masks to protect them from the disgusting smells and fumes involved in the process, or they are zombified humans like the dwarves, albeit with no requirement to be shrunken down, since their job is Earthside and there is no need to prepare them for conditions on the Red Planet. In the second scenario, the mask has a double purpose of hiding their rotten/mutated state from anyone lucky enough to see them and survive. Men wearing gas masks would be an easier sight to cover-up and explain away than an army of hideously deformed humanoids.
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Post by jka12002 on Mar 30, 2014 20:55:19 GMT -5
It's not entirely clear whether the Tall Man is a "walk-in" spirit in control of Jebediah; an extradimensional intelligence that has taken the form (but not the original body) of Jebediah; or if he is simply Jebediah himself having had an epiphany or having discovered some piece of knowledge in his interdimensional travels that is so world-alteringly, mind-bendingly horrific/alien/traumatic that it brings about a complete change in him and leads him to become TM of his own volition. Your point about other Tall Men is a good one, and I wonder also if there are not powers and authorities above him, managers and masterminds of an operation of which TM is merely a foreman... Of course, the other possibility is it really is all in Mike's head and it doesn't make sense since it's all a dream, boy. EDIT: Judging from Phantasm 2, the Gravers seem to be muscle for exhuming and preparing corpses for transformation. I suspect they are either "hypnotised" humans like the pallbearers, albeit wearing masks to protect them from the disgusting smells and fumes involved in the process, or they are zombified humans like the dwarves, albeit with no requirement to be shrunken down, since their job is Earthside and there is no need to prepare them for conditions on the Red Planet. In the second scenario, the mask has a double purpose of hiding their rotten/mutated state from anyone lucky enough to see them and survive. Men wearing gas masks would be an easier sight to cover-up and explain away than an army of hideously deformed humanoids.
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Post by jka12002 on Mar 30, 2014 20:55:33 GMT -5
It's not entirely clear whether the Tall Man is a "walk-in" spirit in control of Jebediah; an extradimensional intelligence that has taken the form (but not the original body) of Jebediah; or if he is simply Jebediah himself having had an epiphany or having discovered some piece of knowledge in his interdimensional travels that is so world-alteringly, mind-bendingly horrific/alien/traumatic that it brings about a complete change in him and leads him to become TM of his own volition. Your point about other Tall Men is a good one, and I wonder also if there are not powers and authorities above him, managers and masterminds of an operation of which TM is merely a foreman... Of course, the other possibility is it really is all in Mike's head and it doesn't make sense since it's all a dream, boy. EDIT: Judging from Phantasm 2, the Gravers seem to be muscle for exhuming and preparing corpses for transformation. I suspect they are either "hypnotised" humans like the pallbearers, albeit wearing masks to protect them from the disgusting smells and fumes involved in the process, or they are zombified humans like the dwarves, albeit with no requirement to be shrunken down, since their job is Earthside and there is no need to prepare them for conditions on the Red Planet. In the second scenario, the mask has a double purpose of hiding their rotten/mutated state from anyone lucky enough to see them and survive. Men wearing gas masks would be an easier sight to cover-up and explain away than an army of hideously deformed humanoids.
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Post by jka12002 on Mar 30, 2014 20:55:53 GMT -5
It's not entirely clear whether the Tall Man is a "walk-in" spirit in control of Jebediah; an extradimensional intelligence that has taken the form (but not the original body) of Jebediah; or if he is simply Jebediah himself having had an epiphany or having discovered some piece of knowledge in his interdimensional travels that is so world-alteringly, mind-bendingly horrific/alien/traumatic that it brings about a complete change in him and leads him to become TM of his own volition. Your point about other Tall Men is a good one, and I wonder also if there are not powers and authorities above him, managers and masterminds of an operation of which TM is merely a foreman... Of course, the other possibility is it really is all in Mike's head and it doesn't make sense since it's all a dream, boy. EDIT: Judging from Phantasm 2, the Gravers seem to be muscle for exhuming and preparing corpses for transformation. I suspect they are either "hypnotised" humans like the pallbearers, albeit wearing masks to protect them from the disgusting smells and fumes involved in the process, or they are zombified humans like the dwarves, albeit with no requirement to be shrunken down, since their job is Earthside and there is no need to prepare them for conditions on the Red Planet. In the second scenario, the mask has a double purpose of hiding their rotten/mutated state from anyone lucky enough to see them and survive. Men wearing gas masks would be an easier sight to cover-up and explain away than an army of hideously deformed humanoids.
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Post by jka12002 on Mar 30, 2014 20:56:22 GMT -5
It's not entirely clear whether the Tall Man is a "walk-in" spirit in control of Jebediah; an extradimensional intelligence that has taken the form (but not the original body) of Jebediah; or if he is simply Jebediah himself having had an epiphany or having discovered some piece of knowledge in his interdimensional travels that is so world-alteringly, mind-bendingly horrific/alien/traumatic that it brings about a complete change in him and leads him to become TM of his own volition. Your point about other Tall Men is a good one, and I wonder also if there are not powers and authorities above him, managers and masterminds of an operation of which TM is merely a foreman... Of course, the other possibility is it really is all in Mike's head and it doesn't make sense since it's all a dream, boy. EDIT: Judging from Phantasm 2, the Gravers seem to be muscle for exhuming and preparing corpses for transformation. I suspect they are either "hypnotised" humans like the pallbearers, albeit wearing masks to protect them from the disgusting smells and fumes involved in the process, or they are zombified humans like the dwarves, albeit with no requirement to be shrunken down, since their job is Earthside and there is no need to prepare them for conditions on the Red Planet. In the second scenario, the mask has a double purpose of hiding their rotten/mutated state from anyone lucky enough to see them and survive. Men wearing gas masks would be an easier sight to cover-up and explain away than an army of hideously deformed humanoids.
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Post by krakenslayer on Mar 31, 2014 6:43:35 GMT -5
Huh! Well, they do say imitation is the highest form of flattery...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 10, 2014 17:58:08 GMT -5
I don't think there's any actual hierarchy, it's all just Tall Man rules, human/undead/sentinel servants drool To be honest I've never liked the idea of the helpers/gravers* being undead - for one thing it contradicts their portrayal in the films, the graver that got chainsawed in P2 bleeds real blood - usually all of the undead servants have that yellow gunk instead. I don't they're hypnotized either, as didn't one of the morticians in P2 try to pilfer Liz's necklace before cremating her? Personally I'd like to know just what are the various "demons" we saw like the nurse in P3, the trooper in P4, Jennifer, Alchemy, Liz Hunchback, etc. How'd Tally come up with them? *IMO "graver" is just the nickname for any living human who serves the Tall Man, and the gas-mask types are just the mortuary staff in protective gear.
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Post by fantasyball on Jun 11, 2014 8:36:05 GMT -5
I agree with Gert, completely. But want to add ofc: The idea of there being lots of Tall Men i guess is based on Tall Man in the beginning of part III, when I toss hos old body into the dimensional forks - reappearing. But if there were lots of Tall Men, why only attack one at the time -- 10 Tall Men would be stronger than only 1. The scene where he toss his own old body, gives us a chock value: we know that the heroes can escape and avoid Tall Man -- he is kind of slow mostly --, but hardly kill him, it seems impossible. When it comes to the hierarchy or not, I see the minions all have different functions serving their only master Tall Man. Sentinels: guard the mausoleums, the HQ:s and their fixed dimensional forks. The forks keep the HQ together in this dimensional. In part 1 Reggie makes the forks f**k up and the entire house disappears. Gravers: digging bodies; there is a scene where a graver put yellow implant in a buddy Graver, so I see them more as "borderliner" half-reanimates. Yes they have red blood, but they have some yellow in it. Dwarfs: is like soldiers in his army, they invade houses and kill people -- and eat their face off. Lurkers -- the guys in the pink hearse --: same as the dwarfs. Gives part III new enemies, as a variation. Girls: chock value. Transsexual chock value. Too bad now one actually have sex with Tall man LOL. In my eyes the girls have an special ability to attract young men. Something that doesn't work on the kid Mike. Demons: I have no idea!? Bud the nurse is unique in having a SILVER sphere in her head, the eyeball sphere. All in all. Only Tall Man gives orders - the rest obey and do what they are best at. That is the hierarchy that I see. In part IV Jody tells Mike that Tall Man went through the dimensional gate, and Jebediah was forever gone -- I think Jody says that Tall Man somehow CHANGED. Along with getting super powers Jebediah CHANGED into something evil. IT IS STILL JEBEDIAH but he has changed into an evil man, once good, now bad. No aliens. There is nothing in the films that point in that direction... The word "alien" is only used once, by Reggie in part III when he explains to Rocky about Red planet being an "alien planet", or something like that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2014 14:05:20 GMT -5
Isn't that scene in P2? I'm pretty sure it was just a random corpse he was embalming...still gonna view the gravers as full humans, albeit dirty traitorous one (tbh if it was a choice between still remaining human by serving Tally or getting killed and shrunk down...eh I'd know what I'd pick.)
But as for Tall Man himself...well it's a tie between "Tally is an avatar for a Lovecraftian Elder God from beyond reality" or "Tally is still Old Jeb' Morningside, albeit totally transcended from being human". Or maybe it's both and Morningside and whatever things he encountered in the void merged and become one being. Here's hoping P5 lays it to rest anyway.
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Post by fantasyball on Jun 11, 2014 16:03:19 GMT -5
Isn't that scene in P2? I'm pretty sure it was just a random corpse he was embalming...still gonna view the gravers as full humans, Yes it's in part II. And, if they put yellow implant into a random guy as in part II, it must RESULT is something that Tally can CONTROLL. We know that Tally and all his minions have yellow liquid in their blood, so this RANDOM person getting it, must then turn into one of Tall Man's slaves... And the only sort that is controlled by Tally AND look human is called Gravers... ...so. =)
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Post by ogredixon on Jul 14, 2014 13:17:16 GMT -5
After reading through the progression of posts my opinion is this. I believe the Tallman is at the very least the head "alien" and that he does have some sort of telepathic control over many different characters in the Phantasm world. An example of this is in P1 with the caretaker looking around and Mike was hiding in the casket. The Tall Man walks in right about the time the caretaker was going to look in the Mike casket, he doesn't say a word, but the caretaker turns and walks out. The sentinel spheres seem the same, they are somewhat autonomous until the Tall Man heeds them to do something specific. In the P2 sphere chase scene, the sphere didn't distinguish between the intended victim/s and the mortuary minion that was chasing them.
At the end of the day though, does it really matter? I keep going back to the end of P1 when the scene switches to the cemetary at the end and it was all a dream? (Boy!) and then when Angus tells Reg at the big battle scene (end of P4) "silly man, it's all in his head", referring to Mike.
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